Just came across this forum on the BBC Ouch! website which is discussing how a person suffering from Bipolar is fighting an employment dispute with her employer…
The link is here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbouch/F2322273?thread=5097747
Bipolar at work
Messages 1 – 19 of 19
Message 1 – posted by karmaboyblue (U11052790) , Feb 13, 2008
I am now going to try to cut a very long story short, but there is still going to be a lot to read!!! i appologise if it takes me a while to get to the meat of the matter,
I am 30 now and i was diagnosed with manic depression when i was about 15. Took Lithium till i was 19. Up until last year i always looked at that part of my life as a “phase that i went through”
after going through i terrible depressive episode in late december i was in a bad state. At the same time I was getting diciplined at work for persistant lateness and absence..
In January i saw those stephen fry programs with my girlfriend and we looked at each other in shock and for the first time i admitted i was ill. I went to the doctor the next day and an appointment was made to see consulant in July.
i made the decision to be open and upfront with my employers.
i told them everything and they seemed very helpful
I gave them permission to see my medical records etc.
they said they would get back to me with paperwork to fill etc.
In march, they still hadn’t got back to me. Through this time i was working as normal.
a couple of incidents occured in the middle of march
1) i was accused of verbally abusing my manager
2) i was accused of talking to a customer in an inappropriate manner
3) someone emailed my manager saying they thought i was lying about “having depression”.
I was called into an “emergancy” fact-finding meeting nearly two weeks after these incidents were supposed to happen.
i was very distressed and shocked , and instead of answering their questions, i sad with my head in my hands crying…
Eventually i calmed down and i was handed a piece of paper saying i was suspended on fully pay – i was told this was pending access to my medical records.
I cooporated with all their requests etc.
and in July i saw consultant and he precribed me on small doses of lithium (which are now increased to 800g a day – seem to be right level)
was invited to a diciplinary meeting day after i saw consultant
accused of 1) and 2) (above) and also for acting bizarrely in the factfinding meeting.
I wasn’t member of union, so i went to a solicitor who did free first interviews, you know, for a bit of advice etc…
i was all over the place when i saw him and he told me not to go to meeting as i was unfit to defend myself, i got doctor to confirm and was signed off sick july 5-november 5th
They stopped my sick pay in september saying i was not entitled to because of my live written warning.
I wrote grievence letter under instruction from my solicitor
had meeting and they came to conclusion in october, they ignored all the points i made and also changed the story about my sick pay,
they now said in the letter they sent me that the reason my sickpay was stopped was because after 6 months – company sick pay expires.
I was mad, and phoned up and tryed to point out the error in the conclusions and i reapeatly told him that I’d only been off sick since july and between march and july i was supended ect ….
he kept answering my questions like a politition and i lost my rag and unfortunately for me i told him to eff off
a letter came in the post a week or so later saying i was suspended on full pay (again)
i had grievence appeal metting on 16th january and am still awaiting outcome
I just received a letter today inviting me to a disciplinary on monday.
for reasons 1) and 2) and me swearing at manager.
even though i filled out the consent forms , they have not requested my medical records for my consultant.
their consultant says after taking to me for barely 20 minutes that incident 1) and 2) have nothing to do my my untreated condition
and has said he think that the third incident is the result of my personality and not bipolar,
I know that that 3rd incident has mucked up any chances of getting anywhere in a tribuneral (my solicitor has told me so)
I know i am going to be dismissed, as they have a rent-a-expert who has given them the green light to do so.
o man. i don’t even know what my point is now.
I know i’m going to struggle to get another job straight away, as my reference is going to be less than good reading.
is there any good organisation that help you get back to work.
I got a mortgage to pay , bills to pay, a girlfrien who is probably more stressed out than me.
Anyone who has read this to the end, thank you.
I just needed to get things off my chest a bit,
take care
Message 2 – posted by WirralBagpuss (U1819612) , Feb 13, 2008
Sorry to hear of this. First off sack the solitictor and get someone else, or better still a specialist disability rights lawyer. Your solicitior should never have put you in the postion as he/she put it has messed up your employment tribunal chances. I’d have a quiet word with the law Society about that, as it may be misconduct on the part of the solicitor ! Thats why i also think you should get a second opinion. At the very least talk to the advisors at the Disabilty Rights Commission
www.equalityhumanrig…
Clearly as i dont know the nature of the griveances or disciplinaries in question i cannot offer you specific advice on your indvidual case. however dont ignore the chance to go to an employment tribunal. Use every legal means at your disposal to put up a fight till the last drop of legal avenue has been used.
Hope this advice for what it’s worth helps and that things do sort themselves out. Best of luck
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Message 3 – posted by karmaboyblue (U11052790) , Feb 13, 2008
thanks for your advice,
I just got a call from my solicitor and my employers want to offer me a payoff and terminate my contract. i am considering it, as long as i get what i want as far as how they word my references and obviously they offer me a fair payoff
I’d Love to take things further, take them to the cleaners and all that
but i just want to get a new job
and enjoy my new life on medication.
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Message 4 – posted by majorconelius (U5289798) , Feb 14, 2008
I do not know what job your in, but think hard before giving up your rights, the problem if you work in a highly qualified job, companies will check on your CV, and the word of mouth is taken as fact not your CV, because large companies know people demand before being dismissed a good CV or covering letter.
This depends on your job of course working in Tesco or Asda thats not very likely, but I think your in a very qualified position, and I’ve seen as a Union Rep the word of mouth making it very hard for people to find another job.
You do have legal rights under the DDA to keep your job and it might well be worth fighting for, only you know this..
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Message 5 – posted by Emma-host (U2375749) , Feb 14, 2008
Hello karmaboyblue, and welcome to the Ouch site and message boards.
I’m not an expert, and have never been in your situation, so don’t feel I can offer any advice. A good suggestion so far has been to call the Equality and Human Rights Commission to see what advice they can give you about your rights and legal position in this case.
There are a number of organisations who claim to help disabled people into work, and these are easily searchable. Your Job Centre can also provide someone called a DEA, disability employment advisor, someone correct me if I haven’t got this quite right. This person should help you with your job search.
Best of luck.
Emma
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Message 6 – posted by karmaboyblue (U11052790) , Feb 14, 2008
To keep going is what i definately want to do, the fact that they want to terminate, tells me they are worried about the case.
They are a very big company and if i was high up the “food chain” i would definately carry on.
However i’ve been working there for 4 years at the bottom of the ladder without medication etc, all my working life i’ve struggled in jobs and not progressed and got the sack from half of them.
I’m on medication now and am receiving professional help, i think i will finally be able to build a career.
Do I try to take the big corporation on, that would seem to be the most noble thing to do. I don’t want to let the incompetant managers get away with their, well – incompetance!!
But I don’t feel very noble right now, I just want my girlfriend to be happy again. She has had a more stressful year than me, she’s had to put up with me and the situation. Once this is all over i’ll be able to repair the damage in our relationship.
i’m still really unsure what to do, toss a coin maybe?
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Message 7 – posted by Sociable (U6743562) , Feb 14, 2008
Welcome to Ouch karmaboyblue.
Just to follow up on Emma’s excellent suggestion to check out the exact legal position, and what options there are now available to help resolve issues like this, here is the link to the main EHRC Disability Helpline details:
www.equalityhumanrig…
Good luck whichever route you end up taking and please keep us updated and ask as many questions as you need along the way as we all love to help if and when we can even if it is only to provide moral suport and encouragement.
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Message 8 – posted by mabel_piratesmol (U3147115) , Feb 14, 2008
Hello Karmaboyblue. Just caught up with your story. Poor you & a for your Gfriend for being so supportive dispite her own problems.
I agree with PP and would strongly urge you to get a specialist solicitor who will stick up for you. Knowing that you were not fit to speak for yourself, your previous solicitor should have instructed your employer to only speak to him and not to harrass you…or else
I agree, your employers probably know their case against you may be dodgy. However, I wouldn’t commit myself to anything without proper legal advice.
As for help finding a job…you might like to take the opportunity to think about what sort of job you’d really like to do & maybe go back to college/train for something? Let’s hope that it doesn’t come to that, but I can help guide you through the benefits ‘maze’ if necessary.
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Message 9 – posted by tigerwarriorprincess (U9292809) , Feb 14, 2008
Your situation sounds something like one I have posted about recently – an ex-employer who couldn’t seem to apply the DDA.. a large ex-employer.. etc etc.. I’m not the best one to offer advice, as I ended up leaving my job with a pay-off instead of making my mental health worse by constant fighting, ie taking them to an industrial tribunal, which apparently I could have done.
Just wanted to wish you well, with whatever action you take – make sure your Health Comes First. No job is worth sacrificing it for.
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Message 10 – posted by mabel_piratesmol (U3147115) , Feb 14, 2008
Looks like I may have the same fight on my hands TWP
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Message 11 – posted by karmaboyblue (U11052790) , Feb 14, 2008
I’d like to thank everyone for their support, i wish i’d stumbled upon ouch last year!!
i agree, my solicitor could of done a lot better for me. However, what’s done is done.
I’ve decided after much thought, advice and reading that if i can come up what i feel is the right settlement for me , then i’ll do it.
I’d so love to take things further, but i want my life back!!
If … (oops, nearly gave the name of the company there) don’t agree to my terms, then i will take my chances.
as far as college is concerned, it is necessary for me to gain some qualification, as i have none at all. (except for some worthless nvq in I.T.) At the moment i am sharpening my skills on www.open.ac.uk/openl… I will be pursuing a balance between quality and cheap education.
I need to find something i’m passionate about, rather than working in a call centre for a big bank. I need to work because me and my babe got a mortgae etc to pay..
anybody know anywhere i can find a job where one can be creative, treated well, and with out the need of formal qualifications?
As far as benefits are concerned, i hope very much not to have to go down that route. I’m as well as I have ever been in my adult life and i’d feel like a fraud if i did.
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Message 12 – posted by mabel_piratesmol (U3147115) , Feb 14, 2008
Well done Karma – good luck with the Open University (OU). I’m currently in year 3 of a BA in Health & Social Care. I should be studyng now, but stopped for coffee break 1 hour ago
I can understand how you feel about just walking away.
On the subject of benefits:
1. There is no shame in claiming benefits – you’ve paid your Nat Insurance so now is the time to claim on that insurance. If someone wrote off your car, you’d claim wouldn’t you?
2. It’s not just the money – you need to keep your Nat Ins record up to date.
3. By claiming you’re keeping all those Jobcentre ‘bunnies’ off the dole
Please don’t delay claiming JSA or IB. You wouldn’t believe how many letters I get from people who delayed claiming because they thought they’d get a job quickly and are horrified that we can’t backdate the claim.
Good luck
Are you & Gfriend doing anything special tonight?
Sorry TWP
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Message 13 – posted by Limpette (U3941389) , Feb 14, 2008
Hello karmaboyblue – belated welcome. I’d have been to this thread earlier but I’m having to ration my Ouch time at the mo to balance stuff.
Do I try to take the big corporation on, that would seem to be the most noble thing to do. I don’t want to let the incompetant managers get away with their, well – incompetance!!
Quoted from this message
As someone whose MH prob and disability were caused by work, I had to make a similar decision. It seemed to me that the person who’d been wronged was the one who not only had to struggle with their MH, fight hard to get back into the workplace and keep their end up once there but, also struggle with the stresses of bringing their case. For some people, that just costs too much. And, as twp says, your health comes first.
I read on and saw that you’ll do what you feel is right for you. Good luck!
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Message 14 – posted by tigerwarriorprincess (U9292809) , Feb 14, 2008
Are you & Gfriend doing anything special tonight?
Sorry TWP
Quoted from this message
Someone’s obviously been reading Vaughan’s Valentine thread which I wasn’t going to dignify by posting on it (she said..)
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Message 15 – posted by mabel_piratesmol (U3147115) , Feb 14, 2008
Yup – ‘fraid so!
I noticed that you couldn’t resist though
Or are you just a soppy old romantic at heart?
I MUST do some Open Uni & salvage something from today.
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Message 16 – posted by tigerwarriorprincess (U9292809) , Feb 14, 2008
Or are you just a soppy old romantic at heart?
Quoted from this message
*snorts*
and pfffft
and
As If!
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Message 17 – posted by karmaboyblue (U11052790) , Feb 14, 2008
Me and my girlfriend will, probably go out for a few drinks. Valentines Day is all a bit too much of a commercial rip-off for me.
Our valentines day was couple of days ago,
we been going out for six years and two days now.
How she puts up with with me , i’ll never know!!
We went to a lovely indian restarant called nights of india (in manchester), and got drunk in a few bars afterwards, Outstanding food, brilliant night….
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Message 18 – posted by petjessie123 (U11331555) , Mar 26, 2008
Hi Karmaboyblue,
I totally know how you feel I have just walked out of a Job stupid I know but I have had a lot of time off and some silly moo I work with was telling people I was just skiving etc I pulled her up on it and she reported me!
Then the follwing week someone had a go at me so I walked now feel gutted I done that just married as well,I have started a new job but only manged a day!
Went to gp who has given me Quetiapine and increased my fluroxitine to 60mg
I have only been told I have panic attacks and deppresion I’m wondering if I may have Bipolar as my mood is up and down like a yoyo
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Message 19 – posted by MacBigJeff (U11293152) , Mar 27, 2008
Hi karmaboyblue
since i have become ill i have not worked except voluntary work. Whenever i disclose my illnesses on forms i get no response from jobs i apply for and met with people being scared of me because of my illness or even hostile. Its very frustrating to be seen as an illness and not a person.
A study carried out for the government found out that 70 percent of employers would not even take someone on for an interview let alone a job if they disclosed a past or present mental health illness.
I think most peoples reaction is like when Eddie izzard did a stand up show where he was talking about makeup on a man and walking into a newsagents to by a paper. Its as if the general public have no information on how to react. hes very funny explaining how he deals with it and how other people deal with him basically wearing women’s cloths and makeup. Although obviously different to disability it still evokes in some a hostile reaction to stunned silence.
On Stephen fry. i have been a fan of his work for some time and when he announced to the world about his condition and that he would be making a program about mental illness i watched with much believe that he was spreading the word about mental health in a way that no one to my mind has done before. It was a brilliant program and highlighted a great deal.
I wish you well in you life with this misunderstood illness
I have been conducting research into legal cases involving people with Bipolar and have found this one regarding an employee who was dismissed for having a breakdown at work….
For details see the Disability Rights Commission website (UK organisation) http://83.137.212.42/sitearchive/drc/the_law/drc_legal_cases/impairment/mental_health_service_users_an/dismissal_of_person_with_bipol.html
Dismissal of person with bipolar affective disorder for alleged gross misconduct DRC00020
Summary: The client was diagnosed with Bipolar Affective Disorder. Her condition is adequately stabilised with medication. In April 2000 the client was dismissed from her employment for what her employer described as ‘gross misconduct’ after she had a mental breakdown at work and was admitted to hospital. The client considers that her employer discriminated against her by terminating her employment for a reason relating to her disability (i.e. dismissing her when she broke down at work) and failing to make reasonable adjustments to accommodate her particular needs.
Interest: The case highlights the issue of retention of a disabled person’s employment through the provision of reasonable adjustments rather than proceeding straight towards dismissal.
Outcome: ET held that client had been unlawfully treated less favourably because of her disability but did not rule that it was an appropriate case for the Respondent to make reasonable adjustments. At the Remedies Hearing on 23 July 2001 the Respondent was ordered to pay the total sum of £23,069.80 including an award of £8,000 (plus interest) for injury to feelings.
US Court ruling “Bipolar Disorder is physical disorder and not a mental illness” :
Implications for discrimination by insurers against mental health problem
(Article from Equilibrium website) http://www.bipolar-foundation.org/index.aspx?o=1354
This case revolves around the increasing and incontrovertible evidence from various areas of research that bipolar disorder is not ‘merely’ a ‘psychological disorder
It has reluctantly been accepted by individuals suffering from bipolar disorder (manic-depressive illness) and other mental health disorders that they face problems with regard to insurance of all types. Life insurance, personal income insurance and motor insurance are all affected by history of pre-existing ill health of any type but some policies specifically exclude cover for the de-novo development of ‘mental illness’ during the term of the policy, treating it differently from ‘physical disorders”, as well as imposing larger premiums or imposing other limitations on people with known mental health problems.
A court ruling on this issue in the US which is of considerable significance in this area has not been picked up at all by the popular media or the professional literature either within or outside of the US. Although not of direct legal impact outside of the US, we believe this case raises important issues about the way both employers and insurers deal with claims arising from the development of mental health problems. It also raises more general issues regarding differential stigma of ‘mental’ versus ‘physical’ ill health. This case revolves around the increasing and incontrovertible evidence from various areas of research that bipolar disorder is not ‘merely’ a ‘psychological disorder’.
The Case: Fitts v. Fannie Mae[1]
The ruling by the United States District Court for the District of Columbia involves an employee of a major mortgage company who developed bipolar disorder and whose employee disability insurance provider stopped paying disability benefits after 24 months on the grounds of bipolar disorder being a ‘mental illness’. The policy provided cover until the age of 65 for physical disability. Ms. Fitts had worked for the company for 13 years before she was first diagnosed with bipolar disorder in 1995. The employee- Ms. Jane Fitts, successfully brought a case against both the employer and the insurer arguing that bipolar disorder did not clearly fall in the category “mental, emotional or nervous diseases or disorders of any type”. The court awarded “prejudgment interest on all sums due her and the costs of this action “.
Three pieces of evidence were presented to back this argument, and two expert witnesses, including Miss. Fitts’ own psychiatrist, provided evidence:
1. Ms. Fitts’ father and brother showed symptoms of the disorder and so a hereditary predisposition coupled with having the disorder showed the genetic nature of the disorder, which must therefore have a physical basis.
2. Brain scans of Ms. Fitts showed excessive age-controlled atrophy of the left parietal lobe and abnormal wave activity on the left side of the brain.
3. Ms. Fitts suffered from physical symptoms such as headaches, chest pains, and insomnia that were ascribed to bipolar disorder.
Prof. Frederick T. Goodwin from the George Washington School of Medicine stated: “bipolar disorder is a physical illness because it is a neurobiological disorder that affects the physical and chemical structure of the brain”. He supported the claims listed above, also making the point that susceptibility to pharmacological therapy suggest a physical cause. Ms.Fitts’ psychiatrist maintained that while the clinical features of the disorder are mainly behavioural and emotional, they are due to physical changes in the brain.
Ms.Fitts’ psychiatrist maintained that while the clinical features of the disorder are mainly behavioural and emotional, they are due to physical changes in the brain.
The defence team argued that bipolar disorder clearly falls within the “mental illness” category because previous judgments had ruled it to be such on the manifestation of the symptoms and because it appears in DSM-IV.
This case was an appeal on a previous judgement against Ms. Fitts’s claim. The first filing of the suit focussed on violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and the District of Columbia Human Rights Act (DCHRA), and breached certain contractual and common law duties. This court dismissed all of Ms. Fitts’ claims except her Employment Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA) claim. ERISA requires all policies to be written in unambiguous language and given that bipolar disorder did not clearly fall within the definition of mental illness in the insurance policy, the court was bound by the doctrine of contra preferentem, which has been applied as federal common law to ERISA. The doctrine states that in ambiguous definitions the ruling should be against the drafter of the contract.
Other cases
Another case ongoing in North America illustrates the unfortunate consequences of stigmatisation of bipolar disorder leading to an understandable reluctance by those affected to openly disclose to employers a history of pre-existing mental illness. The Canadian insurers of the television series The Dead Zone filed a suit against star Anthony Michael Hall to recoup more than $612,000 for failure to disclose he suffered from bipolar disorder, AP reports. The suit claimed production of the series, shot in Vancouver, was halted from May to August 2001 when Hall was treated for “bipolar affective disorder depression with psychotic features” for which the production company submitted a claim and received money. The case is waiting to be heard at The Supreme Court of British Columbia. (Source: Vancouver Sun)
In a case in New York, which does not have parity legislation, a court ruled that a disability insurance policy is not discriminatory because it provided only 24 months of cover for disability due to unipolar depression, rather than cover to the age of 65 years as it would have done for disability due to physical injury. The appellant, a Charlene Polon, continued to suffer with unipolar depression and has not been able to claim disability allowance under her policy from 1996. The case was made under the Insurance Law, and the court ruled that the law only protected from discrimination “with regard to her eligibility for and access to insurance” and not within the terms of the policy[2]. This case demonstrates that many instances of discrimination continue to occur and that even the covering statutes are unclear
For the rest of the article, follow this link:http://www.bipolar-foundation.org/index.aspx?o=1354
On World Mental Health Day 2008 the latest research* we have commissioned reveals that a staggering 49.3% of us wouldn’t feel happy to disclose a mental health condition such as depression at work, rising to almost 54% amongst manual unskilled workers.
The research found that only 18.3% of people would reveal a mental health condition to their HR department, however, 34% of people would discuss their condition with their line manager. Younger workers (16 – 24 year olds) and older workers (over 55’s) were least likely to be happy to discuss their mental health conditions. With 57% of younger workers saying they would not discuss it at all and only 12% of over 55’s saying they would be happy to talk to their HR department.
Respondents from Edinburgh and Leeds were least happy to discuss their mental health at all (67% and 63% respectively). 39% of the respondents from Edinburgh cited shame and embarrassment as their main reason for not wanting to disclose a mental health condition, whereas, 26% of respondents from Leeds cited fears that their employers would not be sympathetic as the reason for not feeling happy to discuss their mental health.
“Despite the office of National Statistics estimate that one in six people may experience a mental health condition at any one time, our research illustrates that people are still very reluctant to reveal their conditions and show any signs of perceived weakness.
However, we know from our work that people with mental health conditions are perfectly capable of managing a job and their condition with the right support from their employers and therefore feel it is vital that such misconceptions are laid to rest”.
Tim Cooper, Managing Director, Shaw Trust
The stigma attached to mental ill health was more of a concern than the fear of possibly hampering career progression among 25 – 44 year olds, with 37% of people in this age group citing shame as their main reason for not feeling happy to talk about a mental health condition.
Those respondents in graduate entry level jobs were the most confident that a mental health condition does not affect their ability to do their jobs, with 29% of the people in this group citing this as the main reason they wouldn’t discuss their mental health.
Respondents in professional sales, media and marketing were most concerned amongst all industry sectors about being treated differently if they were to disclose their mental health condition (31%) compared to just 4% of people within the professional finance industry who cited this as a concern.
Professional Finance also came out at the biggest industry group to cite that a mental health condition didn’t affect their ability to do their jobs as their main reason for not wishing to discuss it.
Overall 54% of people felt that they would receive more support at work for a physical disability than a mental health condition (rising to 58 % amongst the senior Manager / Professional group) compared to only 6.9% who believed they would receive more support for a mental health condition.
” People have become more comfortable talking about physical illnesses over the years, however, there is still a huge stigma associated with having a mental health condition. Dealing with such a problem often leaves people feeling awkward and a culture of secrecy seems to have emerged in which people are frightened to confide in others”.
Professor Cary L Cooper, CBE, Professor of Organisational Psychology and Health at Lancaster University
“There is a clear need for more structure and education on how to support employees with mental health issues, businesses need to create an environment in which people not only feel confident enough to discuss a mental health condition with a line manager or member of the HR team but in which they can also receive the support they need to continue making a valuable contribution. We see the effect that being out of work and coping with a mental health condition can have on people’s lives and we are urging employers to use this website to find out how to make a difference in the workplace”.
Tim Cooper, Managing Director, Shaw Trust
*All figures unless otherwise stated are from a Tickbox survey. Total sample size was 1070 workers. Fieldwork was undertaken between 18th – 24th September 2008. The survey was carried out online.
